<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:wfw="http://wellformedweb.org/CommentAPI/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:slash="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/slash/"
	>

<channel>
	<title>Vibist.com &#187; Uncategorized</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.vibist.com/category/uncategorized/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.vibist.com</link>
	<description>Apologetics and Discernment Ministry from Rob Willmann</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 22 Aug 2010 23:24:40 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<language>en</language>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=3.0.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>New Sermon MP3 added: Matthew 12:20-30</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/new-sermon-mp3-added-matthew-1220-30/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/new-sermon-mp3-added-matthew-1220-30/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Apr 2010 04:27:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Audio Sermons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sermons]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[audio sermon]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[sermon]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=165</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#8217;ve added a new sermon to the blog. I preached at the Waterfront Rescue Mission on 4-15-2010. The sermon was based on Matthew 11:20-30, and is approx. 45 minutes in length. Click here to Listen to it, or right-click and select &#8220;Save As&#8221; to save a copy on your local PC. You have my permission [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ve added a new sermon to the blog. I preached at the Waterfront Rescue Mission on 4-15-2010. The sermon was based on Matthew 11:20-30, and is approx. 45 minutes in length.</p>
<p><a href='http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/rob_willmann_sermon_4-15-2010_Matthew_11_20-30.mp3'>Click here</a> to Listen to it, or right-click and select &#8220;Save As&#8221; to save a copy on your local PC. You have my permission to burn the sermon to CD or put it on your IPOD, and distribute it to whomever you&#8217;d like.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/new-sermon-mp3-added-matthew-1220-30/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
<enclosure url="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/rob_willmann_sermon_4-15-2010_Matthew_11_20-30.mp3" length="5559429" type="audio/mpeg" />
<enclosure url="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/rob_willmann_sermon_4-15-2010_Matthew_11_20-30.mp3" length="5559429" type="audio/mpeg" />
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>A Warning to Modern Day Pastors and Preachers from Matthew 11:20-30</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/a-warning-to-modern-day-pastors-and-preachers-from-matthew-1120-30/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/a-warning-to-modern-day-pastors-and-preachers-from-matthew-1120-30/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:38:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=151</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is a message for pastors. I am discharging this message to you. You’ve been duly warned. Matthew 11:20-30 is one of the most sobering, yet hopeful sections of Scripture in all of Matthew. Jesus gives a stern warning to three cities (Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum) that should have repented because of his testimony. Listen [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a message for pastors. I am discharging this message to you. You’ve been duly warned.</p>
<p>Matthew 11:20-30 is one of the most sobering, yet hopeful sections of Scripture in all of Matthew. Jesus gives a stern warning to three cities (Korazin, Bethsaida, and Capernaum) that should have repented because of his testimony. Listen to what he says:</p>
<p><em>Matthew 11:20 Then He began to denounce the cities in which most of His miracles were done, because they did not repent. 21&#8243;Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the miracles had occurred in Tyre and Sidon which occurred in you, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22&#8243;Nevertheless I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. </em></p>
<p><em> 23&#8243;And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24&#8243;Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Why is Jesus speaking so harshly against these cities? Because they would not repent! Their hearts were hardened. They would not turn from their wickedness. Jesus even used “Woe!” The word “woe” is used to express grief, regret, or distress. Can you imagine if Jesus were to say that to you? How would
<ul>you</ul>
<p> respond? It is my prayer that you would respond with repentance!</p>
<p>This message is repeated many times throughout Scripture. One prominent is Luke 16, with the story Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus. Bear in mind:<strong> this is not a parable.</strong> In no other parable does Jesus use a proper name to describe any of the participants. He calls the poor beggar Lazarus, signifying that this was a real event, not a parable simply meant to impart meaning. The events Jesus describes actually happened.</p>
<p>You know the story. Lazarus died as did the rich man. Lazarus goes to Abraham’s bosom, and the rich man goes to Hell. At first, the rich man is thinking only of his own torment, and asks if his tongue could be cooled. After he is told that he’s not going to receive any reprieve from his punishment, he asks that someone be sent to his five brothers to warn them of impending doom if they don’t change their ways. (Even from Hell, the man wants an evangelist sent to his brothers.) But he is told the following:</p>
<p><em>Luke 16:27 &#8220;And he said, &#8216;Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father&#8217;s house&#8211; 28for I have five brothers&#8211;in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.&#8217; 29&#8243;But Abraham said, &#8216;They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.&#8217; </em></p>
<p>Notice that Abraham said, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; Let them hear them” Let’s translate that to today for us: WE have the Scriptures. We have the testimony of God’s saints. We have the very WORD OF GOD! What gives me chills are the two following verses:</p>
<p><em>Luke 16:30 &#8220;But he said, &#8216;No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!&#8217; 31&#8243;But he said to him, &#8216;If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.&#8217;&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Does this not convict you? Oh that we would truly understand this teaching! They will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead! In our generation, Jesus’ resurrection is being attacked, especially by some of those in the emergent movement (process theology) camp. <strong>Phyllis Tickle has even said that it’s possible to be a Christian without believing in the physical resurrection of Jesus Christ.</strong> What rank heresy! Repentance is necessary for true Christian faith, as well as believing in the physical resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ.</p>
<p>Back in Matthew 11, three cities were mentioned. The precise location of Bethsaida and Korazin are not known today, but we know of Capernaum.  Bethsaida means “a house of hunting or of game.” It was probably located near the Galilean sea banks. We also know from Scripture (John 1:44) that Phillip, Andrew, and Peter were from Bethsaida. </p>
<p>However, we DO know something of the cities (Tyre and Sidon) that these unrepentant villages were compared to. Tyre and Sidon were opulent, wealthy places. 2 Chronicles 2:11-16 lists these cities as places where building materials for Solomon’s temple were derived. These cities were very old and yet Jesus is saying that these cities would have repented if they’d seen the miracles in them that were performed in Bethsaida and Korazin.</p>
<p>What would have caused them to repent? <strong>The Mighty works of Jesus Christ!</strong></p>
<p>In our culture, what mighty works have been done? What has Christ done for us? Has Christ been proclaimed here? Of course! Do you realize that westernized countries are overrun with Bibles?  We have churches everywhere. <strong>Pastor, what of Jesus have you shown forth to this wicked generation?</strong></p>
<p>But WOE to us! We kill 3,700 babies A DAY in the US due to abortion alone. The figures below from AbortionNO should shock you into how wicked our nation is: </p>
<blockquote><p><strong>UNITED STATES</strong><br />
Number of abortions per year: 1.37 Million (1996)<br />
Number of abortions per day: Approximately 3,700</p>
<p>Who&#8217;s having abortions (religion)?<br />
Women identifying themselves as Protestants obtain 37.4% of all abortions in the U.S.; Catholic women account for 31.3%, Jewish women account for 1.3%, and women with no religious affiliation obtain 23.7% of all abortions. 18% of all abortions are performed on women who identify themselves as &#8220;Born-again/Evangelical&#8221;.</p></blockquote>
<p>Did you catch that? Add it up: 55.4% of the women having abortions (OVER HALF) of them either claim to be Protestants, or “Born-again/Evangelical.” What wickedness! </p>
<p>Why? Why does this happen? <strong>I blame many pastors for this tragedy.</strong> In an effort to be culturally relevant, many pastors are preaching “feel-good” messages aimed at increasing church attendance, rather than preaching messages of holiness, righteousness, and what we must do to live lives that are pleasing to God!</p>
<p>You see, in whatever direction culture turns, the church is not far behind. Don’t believe me? Just go to Youtube and do a search for church humor. The videos that result should be revolting. We pastors have turned church into an entertainment center and as a result, MEN are not being taught to be the biblical, Godly leaders of their homes that they should be. Because of the lack of Biblical men in the church today, women (our daughters and wives) are coming to their own conclusions about whether life is sacred, and how important careers should be, instead of how precious life is. Christian women today are making decisions to kill their children because they truly believe that it’s for the best. </p>
<p><strong>WAKE UP! Woe to us, American pastors!</strong></p>
<p>In Leonard Ravenhill’s book “Why Revival Tarries”, he says the following on p. 20:</p>
<blockquote><p>“The tragedy of this late hour is that we have too many dead men in the pulpits giving out too many dead sermons to too many dead people.”</p></blockquote>
<p>I wholeheartedly agree! Pastors and preachers need to be alert, and sober-minded. What is it going to take for us westernized Christians to wake up and realize we’ve fallen into a pit? When are we going to repent with sackcloth and ashes and turn away from our wickedness?</p>
<p><em>Matthew 11:23 &#8220;And you, Capernaum, will not be exalted to heaven, will you? You will descend to Hades; for if the miracles had occurred in Sodom which occurred in you, it would have remained to this day. 24&#8243;Nevertheless I say to you that it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for you.&#8221;</em></p>
<p>Did Jesus really say that it would be MORE tolerable for the land of Sodom? Yes, He did! Oh, that we would wake up! This is not some sort of word game we Christians are playing. This isn’t a time to just nod in mental assent to the teachings of Christ! <strong>This is absolute spiritual warfare between those who follow the Lord Jesus Christ, and those who oppose Him.</strong></p>
<p>Jesus now THANKS God the Father that these things were hidden:</p>
<p><em>Matthew 11:25 At that time Jesus said, &#8220;I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants. 26&#8243;Yes, Father, for this way was well-pleasing in Your sight. 27 &#8220;All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.</em></p>
<p>Has Christ revealed the Father to you? Do you realize your need for repentance? Pastors, are you teaching your flock the truths of the Bible? Are you broken in prayer for your sheep? Do you realize the peril they are in if they perish without Christ?</p>
<p><strong>Yet still, we must praise the Lord! He continues to offer us redemption! Even though we are wicked, even though we murder our children daily, Christ has come! He offers us rest!</strong></p>
<p><em><strong>Matthew 11:28 &#8220;Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest.”</strong></em></p>
<p>Rest from what? From the yoke of legalism, for one.</p>
<p>I love to evangelize. I love sharing the Gospel with someone for the first time. It’s so exciting to me, knowing that I have been given an opportunity to share the love of Christ with someone who may not believe. Most of the time, if I ask someone, “Why should God allow you into Heaven?” the answer I receive is: “Because I am a good person.”</p>
<p>My answer to them? No you’re not! Even if someone managed some sort of humanistic change and they were able to stop sinning from this moment forward until their life ended, they would still wind up in Hell for their hardness of heart because of the unforgiven sins of their past. We must NEVER presume to say that God OWES US salvation! God forbid it! We all deserve punishment for our past. If you think that you can just be good from this day forward consider this verse:</p>
<p><em>James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.</em><br />
You’re not good. There is but one who’s good, and that’s God. And it is this self-same God who offers us salvation through the shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. Jesus rescues us from that yoke of self-righteous legalism. He rescues us from our sin and wickedness. The Holy Spirit removes our stony hearts, and gives us hearts that beat for him! </p>
<p><em>Matthew 11:29 &#8220;Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. 30&#8243;For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”</em></p>
<p>What are you yoked to? Are you yoked to the Law, or to Christ? If you are yoked to the law, you’re yoked to the entirety of it.</p>
<p><em>Galatians 5:1It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. <strong>7You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?</strong></em></p>
<p>Pastors, are you preaching weak sermons that are meant to attract goats? Or are you preaching with unction, praying and pleading that the Lord would draw His own elect unto Himself? Do you soft-pedal the Gospel, like Rick Warren, Robert Shuller, Joel Osteen, and others? Or do you preach God’s word with the power of the Holy Spirit?</p>
<p>I am laying this charge at your feet, pastors. The sheep are not being fed, so instead they turn to wickedness. Are you going to be faithful to preach God’s word and stand firm, come what may?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/a-warning-to-modern-day-pastors-and-preachers-from-matthew-1120-30/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>2</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>National Association of Evangelicals Asked to &#8220;Unsign&#8221; the Covenant of Civility</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/national-association-of-evangelicals-asked-to-unsign-the-covenant-of-civility/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/national-association-of-evangelicals-asked-to-unsign-the-covenant-of-civility/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:21:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Brian McLaren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defending the faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Holding Onto The Faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true Gospel]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=140</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Over at the blog &#8220;My Word Like Fire&#8221; (link here), John Lanagan has written a short blog post where he asks: Will NAE disavow &#8220;Covenant of Civility&#8221;? In case you didn&#8217;t know, NAE is the National Association of Evangelicals, currently headed by L. Roy Taylor. In no uncertain terms, Lanagan puts him to the point: [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over at the blog &#8220;My Word Like Fire&#8221; (<a href="http://mywordlikefire.wordpress.com/2010/04/12/will-nae-disavow-covenant-of-civility/">link here</a>), John Lanagan has written a short blog post where he asks: Will NAE disavow &#8220;Covenant of Civility&#8221;? In case you didn&#8217;t know, NAE is the National Association of Evangelicals, currently headed by L. Roy Taylor. In no uncertain terms, Lanagan puts him to the point:</p>
<blockquote><p>L. Roy Taylor,<br />
It is my understanding that you have signed the “Covenant of Civility.” As you may know by now, Assemblies of God General Superintendent George O. Wood has asked that his name be removed from this document.</p>
<p>I respectfully ask that you, as President of the National Association of Evangelicals, do the same. </p></blockquote>
<p>You see, Brian McLaren and other signatories have added their signature to the document. I applaud Lanagan&#8217;s letter written to L. Roy Taylor, and here&#8217;s why: Scripturally we cannot support joining hands with those who deny some of the basic tenets of the Christian faith.</p>
<p>I was a musician before I was saved, and I often think of things in musical terms. If two people were singing in unity, it meant that they were singing the exact same pitch or note. If they were singing &#8220;in harmony&#8221;, it meant that the two notes were not the same pitch, but they complemented each other. Finally, if they were singing in &#8220;discord&#8221;, or in dissonance, then the two notes being sung would have a rather grating effect.</p>
<p>This is what we have going on when you have people such as the Superintindent of the AoG and the President of the NAE signing a document with the likes of Brian McLaren and others who cannot agree with us on the core tenets of the Christian faith.</p>
<p>Scripture explains it like this:</p>
<blockquote><p>2Co 6:14-18 (ESV) Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?  (15)  What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever?  (16)  What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, &#8220;I will make my dwelling among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.  (17)  Therefore go out from their midst, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch no unclean thing; then I will welcome you,  (18)  and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I hope that more men will step forward and take their names off such a document. It may seem fruitful from a pragmatic sense to sign such a document, but as Ken Silva has pointed out over at Apprising.org (<a href="http://apprising.org/2010/04/12/aog-superintendent-asks-to-be-removed-from-covenant-for-civility/">link here</a>), this will only serve to help those who wish to silence those of us who hold to orthodox Christianity.</p>
<p>This sounds to me like a warmed over version of Catholics and Evangelicals Together. Am I wrong?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/national-association-of-evangelicals-asked-to-unsign-the-covenant-of-civility/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>1</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Stupid is as Stupid Does</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/stupid-is-as-stupid-does/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/stupid-is-as-stupid-does/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Apr 2010 10:30:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Pro 12:1 Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates reproof is stupid. My daughter was watching TV recently, and she shocked me when she came and told me she heard the &#8220;S-word&#8221; on TV. I was horrified and wondered what she could&#8217;ve watched that used the &#8220;S-word&#8221;. I couldn&#8217;t think of what it [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>Pro 12:1  Whoever loves discipline loves knowledge, But he who hates reproof is stupid.</em></p>
<p>My daughter was watching TV recently, and she shocked me when she came and told me she heard the &#8220;S-word&#8221; on TV. I was horrified and wondered what she could&#8217;ve watched that used the &#8220;S-word&#8221;. I couldn&#8217;t think of what it was. I asked her and she said it was a children&#8217;s show. Now this really had me puzzled so I asked her, &#8220;Honey, what&#8217;s the S-Word?&#8221;</p>
<p>She whispered her reply: &#8220;Stupid.&#8221;</p>
<p>You see, around my house stupid is the &#8220;S-word&#8221;. My daughter has been taught since she was young that you don&#8217;t call people stupid. Yet here in the Proverbs we find the word stupid leading off the 12th chapter.  For those of you who are fans of the King James version the word &#8220;brutish&#8221; is used. Yet the meaning is still the same.</p>
<p>Albert Barnes in his commentary on this particular verse writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>Brutish &#8211; Dumb as a brute beast. The difference between man and brute lies chiefly in the capacity of the former for progress and improvement, and that capacity depends upon his willingness to submit to discipline and education.</p></blockquote>
<p>Psalm 49:20 also reveals this same idea:</p>
<p><em>Psalm 49:20  Man in his pomp, yet without understanding, Is like the beasts that perish.</em></p>
<p>Albert Barnes also has the following to say about the final phrase of Psalm 49:20 <strong><em>&#8230;&#8221;Is like the beasts that perish.&#8221;</em></strong></p>
<blockquote><p>They live only for this life. They have no higher nature than that which pertains to the senses, and they live accordingly. The man who, though of exalted rank, lives for this life alone, herein resembles them. See the notes at Psalm 49:12. Alas! what multitudes there are who thus live &#8211; whose only aim is to secure the wealth and the honors of this life &#8211; who have no more thought of a future state, and who form no more plans in regard to a future world, than do the brutes! For many there are in exalted stations, who are surrounded by all that wealth can give, yet who no more admit the thought of a future world into their hopes and plans than if they had no other endowment than the camel or the ox, and whose conduct in this respect would not be changed if all the higher endowments which constitute the nature of man were withdrawn, and they were at once reduced to the condition of a brute. While, therefore, the main purpose of this psalm is to show that wealth confers no “power” which is to be dreaded &#8211; that its possessor, though wicked, cannot permanently injure us, since he must soon pass away by death &#8211; the course of thought at the same time teaches us that we should not “desire” wealth as our portion; that we should not live for this, as the main object of life. The possessor of the most ample fortune must soon be laid in the grave. All that he has acquired will pass into other hands, and will be his no more. But he “has” a higher nature. He “may” live in a manner different from the brute that perishes. He “may” act with reference to a higher &#8211; an eternal &#8211; state of existence; and, when he dies, he “may” leave his earthly inheritance, whether great or small, only to enter on an inheritance that shall he permanent and eternal. “What shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?” Mark 8:36.</p></blockquote>
<p>Proverbs 12:1 uses two contrasting verbs: <strong>love and hate</strong>. Whoever<strong> loves </strong>discipline gets one result. Whoever <strong>hates</strong> reproof, another. God in his amazing wisdom didn&#8217;t just give us one glimpse, but as is so often the case in the Proverbs, comparison is drawn between two different ideas in order to help us understand.</p>
<p>So in order to understand the brutishness, or stupidity of those who hate reproof, God gives us a glimpse of those who love discipline.</p>
<p>For me, discipline conjures up two different thoughts: correction, and discipleship. These two run hand in hand in my mind. How can I call myself a disciple of someone if I am not  willing to subject myself to their correction? But before we just run ahead with my opinion of this proverb, let&#8217;s look at what the original Hebrew calls discipline. From Strong&#8217;s we read the following definition of discipline:</p>
<p><em>From H3256; properly chastisement; figuratively reproof, warning or instruction; also restraint: &#8211; bond, chastening ([-eth]), chastisement, check, correction, discipline, doctrine, instruction, rebuke.</em></p>
<p>We can see that both chastisement and doctrine/instruction are seen in this word. Let me take this to a conclusion: By loving the chastising hand of the Lord, I also love his instruction and knowledge that he gives me.</p>
<p>Likewise with the second half of the verse, Strong says of reproof:</p>
<p><em>From H3198; chastisement; figuratively (by words) correction, refutation, proof (even in defence): &#8211; argument, X chastened, correction, reasoning, rebuke, reproof, X be (often) reproved.</em></p>
<p>So if I hate the chastisement of the Lord, I am stupid &#8211; even brutish in nature. That sounds harsh doesn&#8217;t it? I mean, do the Scriptures actually teach me that I have to LOVE correction from the Lord?</p>
<p><strong>Yes! It does.</strong> If I am to love the Lord, then I will love even his correcting hand.</p>
<p>If you are a parent, you know this is true because your own children bear this out as a witness. Imagine what would happen if you were to let your child run free, and never correct them. It wouldn&#8217;t take long until you&#8217;d have a spoiled brat on your hands with no boundaries, and no respect for you the parent. It&#8217;s true.</p>
<p>So why would we think that spiritually things would be any different for us? God loves us and he corrects us. Scripture consistently bears this out:</p>
<p><em>Pro 3:11-13  My son, do not reject the discipline of the LORD Or loathe His reproof,  (12)  For whom the LORD loves He reproves, Even as a father corrects the son in whom he delights.  (13)  How blessed is the man who finds wisdom And the man who gains understanding.</em></p>
<p>If we are truly to gain in our understanding of the Lord and knowledge of the Holy One, then we must begin loving His correction.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/stupid-is-as-stupid-does/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Warrengate 2010: So What is The Problem With Rick Warren Anyway?</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/warrengate-2010-so-what-is-the-problem-with-rick-warren-anyway/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/warrengate-2010-so-what-is-the-problem-with-rick-warren-anyway/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Apr 2010 04:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Featured Articles]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rick Warren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defending the faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Easy Believism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hermeneutics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Piper]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true Gospel]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=121</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In Ken Silva&#8217;s latest article at Apprising.org: &#8220;Warrengate, John Piper and Desiring God 2010&#8243;, an important topic comes up. Ken writes: &#8220;Apprising Ministries made it clear in Desiring God 2010, John Piper, And Warrengate that this isn’t about Dr. John Piper because no one credible is saying he’s anything other than a dear brother in [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/apprising4-6-101.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-medium wp-image-123" title="apprising4-6-10" src="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/apprising4-6-101-300x156.jpg" alt="" width="300" height="156" /></a>In Ken Silva&#8217;s latest article at Apprising.org: <a href="http://apprising.org/2010/04/06/warrengate-john-piper-and-desiring-god-2010/">&#8220;Warrengate, John Piper and Desiring God 2010&#8243;</a>, an important topic comes up. Ken writes:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>&#8220;Apprising Ministries made it clear in Desiring God 2010, John Piper, And Warrengate that this isn’t about Dr. John Piper because no one credible is saying he’s anything other than a dear brother in Christ who’s made a mistake by inviting Purpose Driven Pope Rick Warren to be a keynote speaker at the Desiring God Conference 2010. What’s been forgotten is there’s a very real reason why I refer to Warren as the PDL pope.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Ken then links to several blogs (some of which use personal experiences) in order to express problems with this whole issue of someone like John Piper inviting Rick Warren (of Purpose Driven Life fame) to come speak at his upcoming &#8220;Desiring God 2010&#8243; Conference.</p>
<p>In my mind, the real question becomes: Why does Piper want to invite Rick to speak at DG2010 when Rick&#8217;s man-centered &#8220;gospel&#8221; and the Gospel as revealed in Scripture are diametrically OPPOSITE of one another?</p>
<p>Rick&#8217;s gospel is man-centered. Yet the Bible places salvation in the sovereign hands of God Himself! (Read Ephesians 2:8-9, Romans 1:16, Romans 5:8, John 1:12, Romans 6:23, etc.) The last time I checked, Piper was right on target Biblically, and I admire his zeal for the Lord and his desire to live holy. But something fishy is going on.</p>
<p>When I first became a Christian, I was literally surrounded by people who were falling in love with Rick Warren, and the &#8220;Purpose Driven Life&#8221;. It seemed like everywhere I turned people were talking about Rick Warren&#8217;s new book and how great it was.</p>
<p><strong>I was unimpressed.</strong></p>
<p>Compared to Scripture, Warren&#8217;s book is shallow, and lacks biblical substance. It compromises the Gospel by providing one of the weakest efforts at evangelism I&#8217;ve seen. Here&#8217;s how Rick explains the Gospel in the PDL:</p>
<p>In Rick&#8217;s PDL video that accompanies the book and study series, Rick leads everyone watching the video in the following prayer:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Dear God, I want to know your purpose for my life. I don&#8217;t want to base the rest of my life on wrong things. I want to take the first step in preparing for eternity by getting to know you. Jesus Christ, I don&#8217;t understand how but as much as I know how I want to open up my life to you. Make yourself real to me. And use this series in my life to help me know what you made me for.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>Rick then makes this amazing claim:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;Now if you&#8217;ve just prayed that prayer for the very first time I want to congratulate you. You&#8217;ve just become a part of the family of God.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The problem with that presentation of the Gospel can be summed up in this scripture:</p>
<blockquote><p>1 Cor 1:21:  For since in the wisdom of God <em><strong>the world through its wisdom did not come to know God</strong></em>, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.</p></blockquote>
<p>Unlike Rick&#8217;s pragmatic, man-centered message, the Scriptures teach us that salvation starts and ends with God himself. It&#8217;s not a man-centered feel-good message. Instead the bible teaches us the following:</p>
<blockquote><p><em>Acts 17:30-31:  &#8220;Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men tha<strong>t all people everywhere should repent</strong>, because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead.&#8221;</em></p></blockquote>
<p>Now this raises an interesting point. <a href="http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/transcript-of-john-pipers-video-re-rick-warren/">Piper says in his video</a> where he is trying to validate why he asked Rick Warren to come speak at his conference:</p>
<blockquote><p>Uh, repentance: He’s been criticized for not highlighting repentance in the purpose Driven life and the way he would explain it is to say:<br />
“I totally believe in the… the necessity of… of repentance and I totally am committed to the call for repentance though I may not use the word as often as some would want me to. So, check out the reality if not… if not the language.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>So Rick Warren says to John Piper that he believes in the necessity of repentance and that he&#8217;s totally committed to the call for repentance. Yet time after time when he speaks about the Gospel, he leaves repentance out.  Not only does he leave out repentance which Jesus also preached (see Luke 13), he replaces it with<strong> SINCERITY</strong> during prayer?!</p>
<p>In Rick Warren&#8217;s world, repentance may not be necessary, only sincerity of heart. Yet the Bible teaches us that:</p>
<blockquote><p>Jer 17:9-10:  &#8220;The heart is more deceitful than all else And is desperately sick; Who can understand it? &#8220;I, the LORD, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give to each man according to his ways, According to the results of his deeds.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>The real issue with this whole dust-up online between Piper and Warren has to do with how Rick Warren presents himself. He&#8217;s like a chameleon. He will say whatever is pragmatically necessary to get the results he wants. So to him the end justifies the means.</p>
<p>Friends, this is not Biblical. We&#8217;re <strong>never</strong> told to compromise on the Gospel. Instead, we hear the opposite in Scripture:</p>
<blockquote><p>Gal 1:6-10: I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ, for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to what you received, he is to be accursed! For am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I striving to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ.</p></blockquote>
<p>For a more in-depth study of why Rick Warren&#8217;s gospel is inadequate, I recommend you check out: Bob DeWaay&#8217;s excellent article found here:  <a href="http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm">http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue80.htm</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/warrengate-2010-so-what-is-the-problem-with-rick-warren-anyway/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Review: Brian McLaren&#8217;s &#8220;A New Kind of Christianity&#8221;, Pt. 1</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/review-brian-mclarens-a-new-kind-of-christianity-pt-1/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/review-brian-mclarens-a-new-kind-of-christianity-pt-1/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 04:02:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Book Reviews]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Heresy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Brian McLaren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defending the faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emergent]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[evangelism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Heaven]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[heretic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hermeneutics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[New Kind of Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Scripture]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theistic belief]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true Gospel]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=106</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Brian McLaren (part of the emergent &#8220;conversation&#8221;) has recently published a new book called &#8220;A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith&#8220;. McLaren published the book in 2010 with HarperCollins, and it&#8217;s been quite a hit. As of mid-April 2010, it&#8217;s currently #484 at Amazon.com for book sales, and #4 in the [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian McLaren (part of the emergent &#8220;conversation&#8221;) has recently published a new book called <em>&#8220;<span style="text-decoration: underline;">A New Kind of Christianity: Ten Questions That Are Transforming the Faith</span>&#8220;.</em></p>
<p>McLaren published the book in 2010 with HarperCollins, and it&#8217;s been quite a hit. As of mid-April 2010, it&#8217;s currently #484 at Amazon.com for book sales, and #4 in the &#8220;Books &gt; Religion &amp; Spirituality &gt; Christianity &gt; Christian Living &gt; Faith&#8221; category.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/mclaren1.jpg"><img class="alignleft size-full wp-image-117" title="mclaren1" src="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/mclaren1.jpg" alt="" width="180" height="135" hspace="5" vspace="5" border="1" /></a>Brian describes himself inside the back jacket cover as &#8220;an author, speaker, pastor, and networker among innovative Christian leaders, thinkers, and activists.&#8221; He also says &#8220;here you will find a provocative and enticing introduction to the Christian faith of tomorrow.&#8221;</p>
<p>My disagreement starts there. What McLaren presents isn&#8217;t an introduction to the &#8216;Christian faith&#8217; at all. While McLaren may be describing what he thinks faith will look like in the future, he has intentionally mischaracterized much of evangelical Christianity, presenting a straw-man view that modern Christians worship a faulty idea of God that&#8217;s derived from the &#8220;Greco-Roman&#8221; lens. Once McLaren sets up the straw man at the beginning of the book, he proceeds to prop it up and knock it over in each chapter.</p>
<p>Each of the 10 questions gets one chapter of discussion. Yet once McLaren asks the questions, he often dodges direct answers, or using Hegelian dialectic methods, he sets up &#8220;thesis/antithesis/synthesis&#8221; answers that often employ gross mischaracterizations of evangelicals. He seems to practice rather long-winded exercises in &#8220;missing the point.&#8221;</p>
<p><strong>This isn&#8217;t orthodox Christianity. It&#8217;s doubt.</strong></p>
<p>Brian slowly introduces his brand of liberal post-modernistic poison, until by the end of the book the views he expresses are at direct odds with what Christianity believes, all the while calling it &#8220;an introduction to the Christian faith of tomorrow.&#8221;</p>
<p>I plan over the course of several serialized blog posts to show how Brian&#8217;s opinion of the Christianity of the future isn&#8217;t a true picture of biblical Christianity, but is instead a picture of wolves running amok in the church.</p>
<p>Just to give you an example of the anger that seems to seethe just below the surface of his book, consider the following:</p>
<p>On page 191 of Chapter 18: &#8220;Can We Find a Better Way of Viewing the Future?&#8221;, Brian  mischaracterizes conservative Christians, especially those who hold to an eschatology that Jesus is coming back soon with the world being consumed by fire. He seems to reject both ideas as old-fashioned and in the way of the Kingdom work that needs to be done. (Yet both ideas of Jesus&#8217; imminent return and the destruction of the earth are both Biblical: See Revelation 22:20, and 2 Peter 3:12)</p>
<p>Listen to what he says on page 192:</p>
<blockquote><p>Those of us raised in dispensationalist circles can regale one another with stories about scary &#8220;left-behind&#8221; sermons, sometimes illustrated through huge and serious wall charts and dramatized in B-rated movies. These sermons often climaxed with warnings about the second coming, when Jesus will return like &#8220;a thief in the night&#8221; &#8211; initiating the &#8220;Rapture&#8221; when &#8220;born-again Christians&#8221; will (we were told) be miraculously evacuated to heaven and the rest (includign the children of &#8220;saved&#8221; parents) will be left behind for a nightmare apocalypse. As a boy of about eight, having come home from school and found the doors locked and nobody home, I once spent nearly an hour sitting on my back porch, deeply dejected and with rising panic, sure that the Rapture had occurred and I was a child left behind. Who knew a third-grader could feel such terror and despair?</p>
<p>To the uninitiated, this all might sound pitiful or laughable, like wild conspiracy theories shared on strange Web sites or middle-of-the-night AM radio. But surprising numbers of mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics have also been thoroughly catechized in this eschatology through televangelist broadcasts and books (and newer B-grade films) in the Left Behind Series, which have broken sales records around the world. If they only focused on speculation about who the antichrist is (I remember hearing it was Khrushchev, then Henry Kissinger, then Saddamm Hussein, and now apparently odds are being placed on Barack Obama!), their eschatological hobby might be harlmess enough &#8211; like a crazy uncle obsessed with UFOs. But in recent decades, dispensationalism and it&#8217;s eschatological cousins have become significant factors in the foreign policy of the richest, most consumptive, and most well-armed nation in the history of history, and that&#8217;s where things get even scarier than a B-grade movie.</p></blockquote>
<p>Here&#8217;s where McLaren really begins to mischaracterize Christians:</p>
<blockquote><p>If the world is about to end, why care for the environment? Why worry about global climate change or peak oil? Who gives a rip for endangered species or sustainable economics or global poverty if God is planning to incinerate the whole planet soon anyway? If the Bible predicts the rebuilding of the Jewish temple (or requires that rebuilding for it&#8217;s prophecies to work in a dispensationalist framework), why care about Muslim claims on the Temple Mount real estate? Why care about justice for non-Jews in Israel at all &#8211; after all, isn&#8217;t it their own fault for being on land God predicts will be returned in full to the Jews in the last days? If God has predetermined that the world will get worse and worse until it ends in a cosmic megaconflict between the forces of Light (epitomized most often in the United States) and the forces of Darkness (previously centered in communism, but now, that devil having been vanquished, in Islam), why waste energy on peacemaking, diplomacy, or interreligious dialogue? Aren&#8217;t those simply endeavors in rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic? And since even Jesus can&#8217;t set the world right without taking up the sword and shedding swimming pools of his enemies&#8217; blood (recalling our discussion under the Jesus question), what&#8217;s so bad about another war, and maybe even a little torture and genocide now and then? If God sanctions it, why can&#8217;t we?</p></blockquote>
<p>McLaren&#8217;s idea of writing a scholarly approach to &#8220;Christian Faith of tomorrow&#8221; seems to involve mischaracterizing Christians, setting up and knocking down a laughable straw-man argument that we view Scripture through a &#8220;Greco-Roman&#8221; lens, spewing forth vitriol at fellow Christians &#8211; all the while holding forth a smug attitude of false humility and piety.</p>
<p><strong>Reader be warned! This book is not about the coming Christian faith. It&#8217;s McLaren&#8217;s attack against the faith that&#8217;s already been delivered to us.</strong></p>
<p>In the next segment, I will be discussing Question 1, &#8220;What is the Overarching Story Lline of the Bible?&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/review-brian-mclarens-a-new-kind-of-christianity-pt-1/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Transcript of John Piper&#8217;s Video of Why He Invited Rick Warren to Speak at the 2010 DG conference</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/transcript-of-john-pipers-video-re-rick-warren/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/transcript-of-john-pipers-video-re-rick-warren/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 16:18:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Transcript]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[atonement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Desiring God conference]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gospel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[John Piper]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[penal substitution]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Rick Warren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[solas]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Universalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[video]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Youtube]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=90</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Words mean things.

Recently there's been a big stir in evangelical circles because John Piper has invited Rick Warren (of Purpose Driven Life fame) to come and speak at the 2010 Desiring God conference. Posts have gone up everywhere. For the sake of helping bring some clarity to the situation, I decided to transcribe the video, so you can not only listen to what John Piper has said, but you can read it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Words mean things.</p>
<p>Recently there&#8217;s been a big stir in evangelical circles because John Piper has invited Rick Warren (of Purpose Driven Life fame) to come and speak at the 2010 Desiring God conference. Posts have gone up everywhere. For the sake of helping bring some clarity to the situation, I decided to transcribe the video, so you can not only listen to what John Piper has said, but you can read it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve tried to separate what Rick was quoted as saying from what John says to minimize confusion. When I can tell the difference, Rick&#8217;s words will be italicized.</p>
<p>To comment, please log in on the right.</p>
<p><strong>Here&#8217;s the transcript: </strong></p>
<p>So I made a list… Here’s my list.. talking to him on the telephone two hours ago about what he thinks about a whole group of… of things. So I’ll just give these to you quick ‘cause we could talk about this for half an hour easy.</p>
<p><em>The bible is totally inerrant, and valuable in every way.</em></p>
<p><em>Penal substitution is of the essence of the Gospel, and the Steve Chalk approach that says “God’s pouring out his punishment on His own Son to free us as divine child abuse” is just horrific to Rick Warren. It’s absolutely essential that we get substitution right in the Gospel.</em></p>
<p><em>God is sovereign and central over all of life</em>. I.. I think Rick Warren meant it when he began the Purpose Driven life with “It’s not about you. Anybody wants to know why he’s on the planet must being with God.” That’s page one of day one on… in the Purpose Driven Life.</p>
<p><em>“People are lost. They’re going to Hell. I am not a universalist” he said. “I’m an evangelist.” What drives my life is Matthew 24:14: “This gospel must be preached throughout the whole world as a testimony to all the nations and then the end will come.”</em></p>
<p>Uh, He’s a baptist. That’s relatively insignificant to me, but a little… little icing on the cake, that it’s a Southern Baptist church out there though they don’t wave that banner.</p>
<p>What would you think he would believe about women elders? He’s just totally there as far as the… the office of elder is concerned.</p>
<p><em>“We don’t have ‘em”, he said. “Can’t find it in the Bible. Women have all the spiritual gifts and they have all the… the gifts of pasturing but as far as the office of pastor, the office of elder goes,” he says, “the bible says it shouldn’t happen. I’m committed to the bible. Therefore we’re not gonna go there.”</em></p>
<p>Uh, repentance: He’s been criticized for not highlighting repentance in the purpose Driven life and the way he would explain it is to say:</p>
<p><em>“I totally believe in the… the necessity of… of repentance and I totally am committed to the call for repentance though I may not use the word as often as some would want me to. So, check out the reality if not… if not the language.”</em></p>
<p>Emergent church: <em>“Brian McLaren’s new book: Off the charts… uh, old fashioned liberalism. It’s as Raushenbush boil… boiled over, warmed over,” he.. he said. “I’m not emergent.”</em></p>
<p>I could even tell you other things he said he’s not but that… that might offend uh&#8230; too many people.</p>
<p>Uhm, memorize Scripture every week. Preaches for an hour. Doesn’t do any drama in worship. Plants a church a year. Uh, rejects the Prosperity Gospel. ZERO FAITH in politics, and he gave me a long and elaborate explanation for why he did the inaugural prayer, and I don’t… I don’t  think it would right for me to share how he made that decision but he hasn’t talked to Barak Obama since that and has no desire to be putting his faith in politics.</p>
<p><em>He said: “I… I…If… if… if politics were the way to change world I’d be a politician. The only thing that’s gonna change the world is changing peoples’ hearts through the Gospel of Jesus Christ.”</em></p>
<p>And on and on, so I… I’m uh&#8230; I’m uh… I need … I’m gonna need help to know why I should feel bad about this decision. (Laughs)</p>
<p>Uh, because let me put it out: One… One… one bigger, one bigger, uh  context: If you see a man do things that you wouldn’t do, if you see him express attitudes that you wouldn’t have. Uh, if he has strategies in ministry that you wouldn’t do, what’re you going to do with that? How do you rank up who you’re gonna hang out with and in what ways you’re gonna hang out? And who are you gonna criticize and who you’re not gonna criticize?</p>
<p>And uhm… I’m real eager that this glorious thing God is doing in the young, restless, reformed, whatever uh this this thing is called that God’s doing &#8211; awakening people’s love for the supremacy of God in all things &#8211; I’m real eager that that not become a… a brittle, narrow, ugly, excessively separatist movement and so I am not devoting my life to finding a lot of enemies to attack. I’ve got some and I like to do it by simply hammering on truth. I… I’m gonna hammer on truth.</p>
<p>In fact I said it to Rick, I said “OK, if you come, how about you and I do a uhh… ohh what do you call it… interview for an hour or so, and we’ll do this kind of thing right here, and I will put…”</p>
<p><em>He said: “In a heartbeat! No holds barred. Ask me anything you want theologically about anything.”</em></p>
<p>So I hope we can fit that in and fold that in, we’ll see if that’ll work in the conference.</p>
<p>Separatism or uh, who you do things with is… is an important, Biblical question. And so I… I don’t put Rick Warren in the group that I am gonna hold at arm’s distance.</p>
<p>On… On the Calvinism thing, on Reformed Theology he said, <em>“I got… I got, I need to tweak. I need to tweak some traditional ways of talking about total depravity.”</em> Well, every time I hear any reformed person talk about total depravity they… they tweak it, saying like… things like “Uh, We could do more bad things than we do. So it doesn’t mean total in that way.”</p>
<p>And he said <em>“I’m stumbling over limited atonement because of some texts.”</em></p>
<p>Well, I got some really close Reformed friends who stumble there. I told David here on the way over, I said “Rick if you’ll give me a half an hour I could persuade you on limited atonement. I know I could.” So I’ll try to get that… that half an hour.</p>
<p>But as far as election, as far as the irresistibility of God’s grace, as far as His keeping power in the substitutionary atonement, the necessity of justification by faith, these central things – We’re there, and I’m not gonna push somebody like that away when they’ve got so much to offer.</p>
<p>Practically, and here I just think he could put me to shame with his aggressively, in-your-life, transformative discipling of his church. Uh, they have a membership covenant that you have to sign, and it is really rigorous and there are no inactive members and he said, <em>“We discipline people in this church. They don’t fulfill their covenant? They’re gonna be disciplined.”</em> And on and on.</p>
<p>So uh, I am not gonna draw the circle there and suppose you disagree with me on that. Now you’re face with the question: “OK, I’m with John Piper theologically. I’m not with Rick Warren on a bunch of things. John Piper has just chosen to hang out with Rick Warren. What do I do with John Piper?” That’s called secondary separation issues. And there you are. I hope… I hope we can disagree about WHO we hang out with. OK? Because a lot of traditional fundamentalists have said “No, if you hang out with somebody that I believe I should separate from, then I’m gonna separate from you.”</p>
<p>And I wanna say: Look. Let’s… Can we disagree about whether he would come to your conference and you still be willing to eat with me, talk with me? So I would encourage you to think through that issue of secondary separation.</p>
<p>The way I have chosen to live my life for the sake of reformed theology and the supremacy of God, and the inerrancy of Bible, and the importance of solid Reformation Gospel truths, the five Solas and so on, is to give all my energy to putting them in a positive, aggressively, uh, spreadable form, NOT to spend my time shooting at the people who don’t like them. And uh, at age 64 looking back over the years I think I have uh, got some work to do with my marriage, and my kids, and my soul, but I do not regret that approach to.. to Reformation advance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/transcript-of-john-pipers-video-re-rick-warren/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>4</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>The Big &#8220;Dust-Up&#8221;: John Piper taps Rick Warren for Desiring God 2010 Conference</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/the-big-dust-up-john-piper-taps-rick-warren-for-desiring-god-2010-conference/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/the-big-dust-up-john-piper-taps-rick-warren-for-desiring-god-2010-conference/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 02 Apr 2010 05:41:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=77</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So the raging news around the blogosphere for the last 24-48 hours has been the invitation of Rick Warren (of P&#8221;urpose Driven Life&#8221; fame) to speak at John Piper&#8217;s 2010 Desiring God Conference. This debate apparently caused enough consternation in the Piper camp to compel John Piper to release a video on his site where [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So the raging news around the blogosphere for the last 24-48 hours has been the invitation of Rick Warren (of P&#8221;urpose Driven Life&#8221; fame) to speak at <a href="http://www.desiringgod.org/">John Piper&#8217;s 2010 Desiring God Conference</a>. This debate apparently caused enough consternation in the Piper camp to compel John Piper to release a video on his site where he defends why he asked Rick Warren to come. Here&#8217;s the vid:</p>
<p><object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/RlxRKLXk1WE&#038;hl=en_US&#038;fs=1&#038;rel=0"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/RlxRKLXk1WE&#038;hl=en_US&#038;fs=1&#038;rel=0" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object></p>
<p>I&#8217;ll see if I can transcribe it soon.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/04/the-big-dust-up-john-piper-taps-rick-warren-for-desiring-god-2010-conference/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Way of the Master Transcript &#8211; Todd Friel and Doug Pagitt</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/way-of-the-master-transcript-todd-friel-and-doug-pagitt/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/way-of-the-master-transcript-todd-friel-and-doug-pagitt/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2010 04:21:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Heresy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defending the faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Doug Pagitt]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Emergent]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Heaven]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hell]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[heretic]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Hermeneutics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Interview]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Judgment]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[theistic belief]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Todd Friel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true Gospel]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Universalism]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Way of the Master]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[WOTM]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=68</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On Oct. 22, 2007 there aired on Way of the Master Radio a phone interview between the host of the show (Todd Friel) and Doug Pagitt. The interview created quite a stir in the blogosphere, and if I remember correctly, several people at the fine Pyromaniacs blog were talking about the show.
I listened to the show, and was so surprised as to the difference between the Christianity that Todd presented and the Christianity that Doug believed in, that I felt the need to transcribe their conversation.
I originally hosted this transcript, but changed websites. The original transcript was unavailable on my website... until now!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<div id="_mcePaste">
<div id="_mcePaste">On Oct. 22, 2007 there aired on Way of the Master Radio a phone interview between the host of the show (Todd Friel) and Doug Pagitt. The interview created quite a stir in the blogosphere, and if I remember correctly, several people at the fine Pyromaniacs blog were talking about the show.</div>
<div>I listened to the show, and was so surprised as to the difference between the Christianity that Todd presented and the Christianity that Doug believed in, that I felt the need to transcribe their conversation.</div>
<div>I originally hosted this transcript, but changed websites. The original transcript was unavailable on my website&#8230; <strong>until now!</strong></div>
<div><strong><br />
</strong></div>
<div>Since there&#8217;s been a big interest in this again since the &#8220;Theology After Google&#8221; Conference which was just held, I decided to rehost this conversation in an effort to help show the difference between emergent thought and historical Christianity.</div>
<div>The original audio of the show was available formerly on Way of The Master.com&#8217;s website, but they&#8217;ve changed formats, and the original podcast isn&#8217;t readily available.</div>
<div>But all is not lost! I saved the interview in mp3 format, and you can listen to it here:</div>
<div><a href="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wotm_todd-friel_doug-pagitt_phone-interview_2007.mp3">wotm_todd-friel_doug-pagitt_phone-interview_2007</a></div>
<div><strong>And here’s the transcript:</strong></div>
<div><strong><span id="more-68"></span><br />
</strong></div>
<div><strong><br />
</strong></div>
<div id="_mcePaste">(Todd starts presentation 5:46 into the show.)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Intro (Todd Friel)</strong>: Yes indeedy there is a problem in evangelical Christianity. That’s a bad thing. The good news is there’s some folks called the Emergents who have identified the problem… the problem being: there seems to be no application of the stuff that’s taught in the Bible. It seems to be a rather disconnected sort of faith – bottom line: there appear to be hypocrites and to that, and to all the Emergent folks I say ‘A-MEN’!</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">This is Way of the Master Radio.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">The question then becomes – What do we do now that we’ve diagnosed the problem? There seems to be people who profess a faith in Jesus Christ, but they do not possess that faith. They are not living it.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">We agree with the Emergents: That is absolutely pervasive and it is a huge problem. How we go about fixing that is another thing altogether.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">We are very happy, and frankly a little surprised . Joining us on the telephone today is Doug Pagitt. You may be familiar with the person’s name – he is one of the … mmm…. leaders. I’m not sure he’d be nuts about that title but he’s definitely one of the higher profile Emergent fellows. He’s the pastor at Solomon’s Porch. You can visit the website: SolomonsPorch.com. You can also visit their website. It’s EmergentVillage.com and he’s with us on the telephone today.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Doug Pagitt</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Todd Friel. We’re very grateful that you’re coming on the show today. Thank you very much.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Well thanks for taking a little time for having me on.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Alright would you, would you agree that we agree there’s something wrong in Christianity that a lot of people don’t act the way they profess. Fair enough?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Yea, I mean, yea I think that’s true. That’s not really the motivation in my life or the people I hang around with. We’re not uhm, that’s not the prime uh motivator that we have about, you know, the way that we do our church, or the way that we interact with people, but I do think it’s true that many people’s lives stay disconnected from their belief system.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Then, then speaking as as an emergent fellow, then what is the prime motivator of the emergent movement?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Uh Uh the prime motivator is to try live well in the world with God, and to invite other people to join in the way of Jesus in the world. So it’s not really trying to fix uhm, struggles that other people, other Christians are having. It’s really trying to join together in what seems to be the uhm active work of God in the world. And uh to invite people to join in that work.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>And what about the afterlife?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yea, uhh, I like to refer to it as the forevermore life. Uhm, But yea, I mean, that’s uhm, that’s uh a really important piece of the whole understanding of God is that uh, uh, like at the end of our uh worship gatherings together at our church we say uhm, we recite this uh, this last long sentence out of the book of Jude. And it’s one of those pieces that ends with uhm, with uhm, uhm, calling for the work that God’s gonna do to be now as God has done in the past, does now, and will do evermore. And so it’s this really wonderful notion that the Christian church has always held to – that there’s a sense of the continuation of the continuous work of God.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Alright.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> And how, you know, how individual people interact in that. I think we best understand that through the – through the resurrection of Jesus. But yeah, that’s what we’re interested in – is inviting people in to participate with God here, as they have in the past. And stay [?] a uhm, uh, a part of the work of God in the world forevermore.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: Alright. I’m going – I’m going to Jude verse 23: “..Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment.”</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Yeah, yeah. It’s helpful, isn’t it?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Yea, do you think, do you think there’s an eternal damnation for people who are not Christians?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yeah, well, I think that there’s.. I think there’s all kinds of … I mean that, that, damnation would sort of be that.. that there’s parts of the uh, life in Creation that seem to be counter to what God is doing and those are the things that are eliminated and removed and done away with. And so I think that’s what damnation is, and so there’s people who want to live out that kind of uhm, wanna have that good judgment – the judgment of God in their life. I mean you know Judge… Judgment in a biblical fashion meaning that God remakes… that God remakes the world.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> OK, Doug, hold on Doug… Doug hold on a second. I have no idea what you just said. Here’s what I think Hell is: eternal damnation, God sends lawbreakers to a place where there’s weeping, there’s gnashing of teeth, a lake of sulpher, the worm never dies, eternal conscious torment. Agree or disagree?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Disagree.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> What do you think Hell is?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I think Hell is disconnection and disintegration from God.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I agree with that also.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I have NO idea what you mean uh, with those.. uh. Those sound like .. Those sound much more like metaphors than they do like actuality. But I don’t know…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Well those are the words that Jesus used to describe Hell.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I know. Oh yeah I know.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Alright, OK.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yes, I know but Jesus [chuckle]but</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>So, Doug I….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> But Jesus didn’t use them in a string like that. So you just pulled a bunch of words from Jesus and strung them together in your own way and then made a….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> It’s called systematic theology. Doug, I’m a good Buddist. Do I get to go to Heaven or Hell?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>No, it’s not called systematic theology. It’s called you restating it.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Doug, I am a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">[silent pause]</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>You, you know this is not an interesting conversation for me. Is this what we’re gonna do? You’re gonna… Your gonna put together false little dichotomies and then ask me to answer one sentence and then interrupt my answers?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I don’t know what’s hard about the question. I am a good Buddhist, where do I go when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Well you probably go to the funeral home, but depending on where you’re being born if that’s what you’re talking about.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> No, pastor. I’m a good Buddhist. Where do I go when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> [laugh] Ok. This is not.. This is just not an interesting or helpful conversation for me to be part of. So if that’s what we’re doing uh, in this conversation, then uhm… It’s.. it. Because what – what you’re asking in this – in this kind of question has to do with a place. Are you suggesting to me that Heaven is actually a place? When you say where do I go, you’re suggesting to me that the reign of God, that the place of God is an.. is an individual PLACE that you go? Is that what you’re suggesting?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Yes, sir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Where, where is that place?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>It’s called heaven.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Where is it?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> We don’t know where it is exactly right now.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Then why would you ask a question, “where do I go?”</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Just because I don’t know where it is doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. Besides sir, this is… This is…this is the core of Christianity..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Then why would you ask where? Why do you ask where?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>This is no-brainer land, sir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>It is not no-brainer land. It’s a nonsequiter.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Sure it is. I’m a good Muslim. Where do you think I go, pastor?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Where do I go? See here we go again. Now you’re talking about a place..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> What happens to my soul when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Ok, now THERE’s a different question.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Alright</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> There you go.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>What happens to my soul when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> There you go. And I’m not just.. you know. You’re the guy who wants to be precise about words. That’s why you put sentences together like this.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Don’t you?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yes very much…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> That’s why when you put together questions like that…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Alright.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> … and ask them they don’t make any sense.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I’m a good Muslim. What happens to my soul when I die?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>You are… you interact with God, just as every other human being interacts with God.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> You mean Hebrews 9: “It is appointed to a man once to die and then judgment?”</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Right, yea, that’s interaction with…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> So he gets judged?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Right, that’s interaction with God.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Uh huh, and so…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yeah.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> What’s… what’s going to happen to the… How is God going to judge the good Muslim?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Does it.. God’s going to judge the life and repair and restore and heal the life of everybody in the same way. There’s gonna be no difference between what God…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>So the Muslim is ultimately not going to be… go to a bad place. He’s ultimately going to be restored with God when he dies?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> No, there’s going to be no difference between the way God going to interact with you when you die and the way God’s going to interact with a Muslim when a Muslim dies.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>So I wanna put… I wanna put this into my fundamentalist language. What I just heard you say is: There is no difference between the Christian and the Muslim afterlife. God is going to have a good place prepared for both of us.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> No, I… No I didn’t say a place. See, here you go again.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Ok, a good thing, a good event, a good existence.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I didn’t say a place. What I said was, the way God’s going to interact with you is the same way that God’s going to interact with everybody. The same experience of all of humanity. God will… God will interact with all of humanity in judgment the same, no matter who you are, or what your parents have taught you, or what you believe.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> (softly) Uhhh…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Now how a person’s life translates into the evermore, that’s something that .. for one to sit on a telephone conversation and say about … nonexistent actual person muslim as compared to Todd, For me to suggest that I’m gonna tell you how God is going to interact with that individual person. What the result of that is going to be is not at all within the bounds of historical Christianity.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>It’s n. But. n.. Mmmmmm… Doug Pagitt, Solomonsporch.com Actually I think that’s exactly what historical Christianity is about and the Emergents are trying to change that.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I know you think that’s what it is, but I would suggest to you that’s not at all ….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Ahh..so I’m, I’m wrong.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> (unintelligible) What I would suggest you do is that I suggest you go and read Acts chapters 16, 17, and 18 as we did out loud in our church last night.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Yep, I’m happy to do that sir, but Jesus, Jesus said that He’s going to judge and it’s going to be sheep and goat.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>And I’d be… and I think you’d find what the apostle Paul says about what happens to all people in their creation and interaction with God. I think that’s where you’ll find it.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Uhm, It seems to me that he says very clearly that those people whose sins are not forgiven will be destroyed. They will go to Hell. It will be a terrible day. There will be a judgment on those who have never repented and trusted the Savior.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> What, Now, now, here here, here again Todd I think that….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: That’s simple. That’s foundational. That’s orthodox, and anything outside of that is heresy.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> No it’s not Todd. It’s you stringing togeth.. Todd, it’s you stringing together a series of pop phrases that you’ve heard from the Bible..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> (insert indignant/flabbergasted sound here.)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>and making up your own conclusion to them. That’s what you just did. You can play….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Well. Pop phrases from the Bible. OK.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> You can play the tape back if you want and watch how you took passages from by my count 4 different biblical passages, strung them together, and made your own conclusion.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>How else do you do it, sir?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Now if your comfortable, if you’re confortable with that being historical Christianity…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>I am, I am. I am very comfortable.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I certainly wouldn’t…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I’m very comfortable. How do you put your theology together?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Because that’s not what it is.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>How do you do it?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Well what you do is you read the actual Bible story. You read the actual narratives. You read the actual letters. You read what was actually said and you let it speak for itself. You don’t go chopping it up … into it’s own little pieces, string it together, and make your own conclusion.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Alright, so let’s just do one where Jesus said there’s going to be sheep and goats.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>The Christian church has condemned that kind of behavior from the beginning.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> And I had no idea you did that kind of stuff because I’m not familiar with you whatsoever, but that, that is just not..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Alright. Then let’s… Doug…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> …at all the way that a reasonable Christian person should intereact with the Scriptures.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Well, ok. That’s… that’s the way it’s been done for a long time, but nevertheless.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>No it’s not the way it’s been done for a long time. See, your people…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Well you’re the one emerging, not me. OK. Nevertheless, let’s take one verse at a time.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Well, maybe, but your people, but whatever, I don’t know what stream you’re from, but whatever stream it is that taught you how to interact with the Bible in that way…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>That old fashioned grammatical historical approach.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>…you might want to go back and look at some other way to interact.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Yea, well no I don’t need a new way. The grammatical historical works just fine for me. Well, nevertheless, let’s just take one verse….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>The grammatical historical method? You’re using the historical method?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Grammatical historical yessir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>The grammatical historical method?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Yessir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> By taking different passages of the Bible…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Mmmm Hmmm.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Stringing them together and drawing your own conclusion?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Yea, that’s how it’s done.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>I don’t think anyone would suggest that that’s the “grammical” (unintelligible)….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> what. Do you come up with a conclusion first, and then go find verses to support it?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>No, you let the verses tell you what the conclusions are themselves.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I agree with that.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>You don’t pick from four different places….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>I don’t know what the difference is. OK</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>… from four different authors .. string them together and then make your own conclusions.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Alright. OK. Alright. Sir, let’s just focus on verse: Romans says….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> [laughter] Which one? Let’s out loud… which, which verse? Which?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Let’s just focus on one, that God says that He’s storing up punishment for those who refuse to repent.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>(unintelligible)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> That’s easy. What do you do, what do you do with that verse, sir. What do you do with all the judgment verses? That Jesus said He’s gonna say “Depart from me you worker of iniquity, I never knew you.” How do you as an Emergent deal with those verses?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> I think they have all to do with people being, uh, eliminated from what God is doing in the world. So when judgment comes, the judgment verses, all have to do with what judgment is. And what the Bible says judgment is – is to (Korem sp?) in the Old Testament, in the Hebrew. The “korem”, is to uh, is to replace that which is not in agreement with God with that which IS in agreement with God – This is the same notion as the uh, the uh, the fire that …. purifies. Judgment is when God recreates the world in the way that it ought to be. The purpose of judgment is to make the world the way that it ought to be. So, from Genesis all the way through Revelation, the finalization of judgment, is the recreation of the Heavens and the earth.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK, now let’s say that we agree on that.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> That’s what it is.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Who’s going to, who’s going to be in the, in that nice place? A good Buddhist and a good Muslim, will they go there?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>No, see now now, now again you’ve created this… this no…. this idea, which apparently you’re stuck with here, that there are places.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Well you’ve just described it, sir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> No I didn’t just describe it.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> You said He’s going to recreate a heaven and earth.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>No I didn’t just describe another place.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Oh. What is it then?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> It’s the recreation of all that exists.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Is is a real place? Is it a real thing?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Here we go again. I mean, I am starting to worry that maybe what you’re, what you’re articulating here (Todd laughs) is the Platonic understanding of the cosmos.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Are we here? Sir, are we here? Do we exist?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> That really what you’re into here is some kind of a… of a… a dualistic Platonic understanding of the cosmos. I’m beginning to think that maybe .. you’re gonna suggest next that God is distant and removed from the earth.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Mmmm… In a sense yes, in a sense no, but nevertheless sir, are we here?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Well that’s because you .. apparently, yea that would be consistent with this Platonic understanding that Heaven is this other place.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Am I real? Doug, am I real? Do I exist?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Well I think so, I’ve only heard your voice, but that… we’ve every indication.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK. Well that, that’s good, OK good. So we’re, we’re here. This is actual. This is stuff. We, We exist on this planet right?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Yea.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK, so when God creates a new heaven and a new earth, what is that going to be if it’s not an actual place?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>It’s a recreated … heaven and earth.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>OK, fine. Who’s gonna be there?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste">(Silent Pause)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>There?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> (unintelligible mumbling.)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>See, here we, oh boy. Here we go again. This is just not working.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I agree!</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> (laughing) It’s unbelievable. See I have a very difficult time working with the dualistic Platonic, Platonist like yourselves, because I have to be taken back into … remind myself, that rather than following the Jesus narrative, I have to go into Plato, and Socrates understanding of the cosmos, so they can end up with a Heaven in one place, in one sphere, and functioning by one set of rules…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>So Heaven…. Let me, let me, then let me try to understand you sir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> ….and then the earth, and then the earth in another sphere, functioning according to a different set of rules.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Then let me try to understand your narrative. Is Heaven and Hell together?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>Unbelievable.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> I agree. It’s unbeleivable sir, you’re right. Is Heaven and Hell, uh, OK so what is it exactly? (laughter)</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> (laughter) See you create this context right, and you create this structure…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Yes because Jesus said “I go to prepare a place for you.” OK, well, I don’t know.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> …and then you ask about it as a “where” and a place, and then you say to me, “Would you please define for me what it is.”</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Sir, when….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug: </strong>I mean, If you’re unclear about it, then maybe you ought to, I mean, you can go look at what Plato or Dante’s understanding of Hell is..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>Yea, well, I don’t, I don’t, yea…..</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong>…. because the description you gave… The description you gave was….</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: You know I’m not doing that to you sir. I’m not, I’m not doing that to you with those kind of reckless characterizations but nevertheless…</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Yes you are.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: Would you, would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim? Pastor would you preach at the funeral of a Muslim?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug</strong>: Would I preach at the funeral of a Muslim?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: Yessir.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug</strong>: I’ve never been asked to preach at a funeral of a Muslim.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: Let’s say you were. Let’s say you were.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug</strong>: Well, if I have a Muslim friend. If one of my Muslim friends were to die and they asked me to talk to the funeral?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: Mmmmm. Hmmmm.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug</strong>: Course I would.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd</strong>: And what hope would you offer their Muslim family?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Oh, I’d offer them the same… the the… the hope that I offer everybody and that’s reconciliation with God that comes through Jesus Christ.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Alright, sir. Now you recognize, and, and I’m not gonna sling this around recklessly, but if I understand, IF I understand you correctly…. what you’re presenting is outside of orthodox, historic Christianity. You do ahh, realize that, don’t you?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> No, what YOU’RE suggesting in this phone conversation is outside the bounds of orthodox Christianity because it’s riddled with Platonism, and it’s riddled with the cosmology that would never be acceptable to uh, Christians through the ages.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd:</strong> Like Luther, and Calvin, and Spurgeon, and Whitefield, and Moody? Those guys wouldn’t agree with me, they’d agree with you?</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Doug:</strong> Yeeaaaa… well, I can’t tell you everything that you believe about things, but if they had to listen to this conversation, I think they’d be terrified by the … [theme music cut off his sentence.]</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>Todd: </strong>I think they’d be terrified too, sir. Doug Pagitt of SolomonsPorch.com. We’ll let everybody decide. Do you understand what just happened here? This is way of the Master radio.</div>
<div id="_mcePaste"><strong>[End transcript.]</strong></div>
<div>And there you have it.</div>
</div>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/way-of-the-master-transcript-todd-friel-and-doug-pagitt/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
<enclosure url="http://www.vibist.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/wotm_todd-friel_doug-pagitt_phone-interview_2007.mp3" length="2581922" type="audio/mpeg" />
		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Brian McLaren&#8217;s New Book is Stirring Waves</title>
		<link>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/brian-mclarens-new-book-is-stirring-waves/</link>
		<comments>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/brian-mclarens-new-book-is-stirring-waves/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2010 03:40:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Rob Willmann</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Apologetics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Heresy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Uncategorized]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Al Mohler]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[apostasy]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Brian McLaren]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[defending the faith]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Jesus Christ]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[New Kind of Christianity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[SBTS]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[true Gospel]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.vibist.com/?p=60</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At the SBTS blog &#8220;Towers&#8221;  there&#8217;s an interesting article called: McLaren’s new book is merely a fresh take on an old lie, SBTS panelists say &#8220;Brian McLaren, author and leading voice of the emergent church movement, has written a new book that seeks to reformulate Christianity, but it is nothing more than a wholesale rejection [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the SBTS blog &#8220;Towers&#8221;  there&#8217;s an interesting article called:</p>
<p><strong><a href="http://news.sbts.edu/2010/03/11/mclaren%E2%80%99s-new-book-is-merely-a-fresh-take-on-an-old-lie-sbts-panelists-say/">McLaren’s new book is merely a fresh take on an old lie, SBTS panelists say</a></strong></p>
<blockquote><p><strong><em>&#8220;Brian McLaren, author and leading voice of the emergent church movement, has written a new book that seeks to reformulate Christianity, but it is nothing more than a wholesale rejection of historic Christianity, concluded members of a panel discussion Thursday at The Southern Baptist Theological Seminary.&#8221;</em></strong></p></blockquote>
<p>Brian McLaren&#8217;s success with young evangelicals has been picking up speed recently, and with his new book he seems to have completely shucked off his sheep outfit and is basically professing to be a wolf.</p>
<p>The problem? he <strong>still</strong> professes to be Christian.</p>
<p>What does Scripture have to say about such things?</p>
<blockquote><p>Jud 1:14-23  It was also about these men that Enoch, in the seventh generation from Adam, prophesied, saying, &#8220;Behold, the Lord came with many thousands of His holy ones,  (15)  to execute judgment upon all, and to convict all the ungodly of all their ungodly deeds which they have done in an ungodly way, and of all the harsh things which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.&#8221;  (16)  These are grumblers, finding fault, following after their own lusts; they speak arrogantly, flattering people for the sake of gaining an advantage.  (17)  But you, beloved, ought to remember the words that were spoken beforehand by the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ,  (18)  that they were saying to you, &#8220;In the last time there will be mockers, following after their own ungodly lusts.&#8221;  (19)  These are the ones who cause divisions, worldly-minded, devoid of the Spirit.  (20)  But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit,  (21)  keep yourselves in the love of God, waiting anxiously for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to eternal life.  (22)  And have mercy on some, who are doubting;  (23)  save others, snatching them out of the fire; and on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment polluted by the flesh.</p></blockquote>
<p>So the scriptures teach us that as we come closer and closer to the return of our Lord Jesus Christ, we would see such things. Even though we can expect such people to profess Christianity yet deny the basics of our beliefs as we have known them for 1,900 years, expecting them does not mean that we sit idly by while they drag unsuspecting people off into their own error and sin. Instead, we are told to &#8220;save others, snatching them out of the fire.&#8221;</p>
<p>The only way I know to do that is a two-fold method: 1) Proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Romans 1:16), and 2) Point out the error of following after someone like Brian McLaren.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
			<wfw:commentRss>http://www.vibist.com/2010/03/brian-mclarens-new-book-is-stirring-waves/feed/</wfw:commentRss>
		<slash:comments>0</slash:comments>
		</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
